LOL SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA. It is generally assumed that vitamin B12 deficiencies are rare among people consuming a varied diet. However, there is some question whether vegetarians get enough B12 as it is not present in plants. Researchers at the Sydney Adventist Hospital have just completed a study aimed at resolving this question. Their study involved 245 Adventist ministers who were either lactoovovegetarians or vegans. The average age of the ministers was 46 years (range 22 to 80 years) and most of them had been vegetarians for over 20 years. The study participants filled out a diet questionnaire and had a fasting blood sample drawn for a 20-test biochemical profile including vitamin B12 concentrations. The mean vitamin B12 level was 199 pmol/L and 73 per cent of the ministers had a level below the recommended lower limit of 221 pmol/L. *Vitamin B12 concentrations were also measured in a control group of 53 ministers who consumed fish, poultry or red meat on a regular basis. In this group 40 per cent had vitamin B12 concentrations below the recommended lower limit; this indicates that vitamin B12 deficiency is widespread even among non-vegetarians.* My Aunt is a Vegan, has been for 30 years, she has 3 kids, all Vegan, all breast fed, all healthy.

Don't take a chance! EAT BABIES! :D

Yes. I'm sure the supplements saved 3 lives. Here in reality, B 12 does not magically appear in your diet. Giaia the space goddess does not magically make vegans healthy by bestowing magic vitamins to replace the shit missing from their diets.

...and if you claim a Vegan diet gives you everything you need, then you can shut up now. Study biochemistry and show me PEER REVIEWED evidence that a vegan diet has everything your body needs... not "Rainbow, the Happy Vegan's" non-reality "expertise". I REALLY hate it when people sell bullshit as real. You may have noticed that here.

Scott, My aunt takes no synthetics whatsoever, nor do her kids. Im not sure who GIA is nor do I care for your sarcasm on such an important topic. B12 is NOT specific to vegans, it also occurs in those that consume animal foods. Did you read the study I posted? Especially this part. *Vitamin B12 concentrations were also measured in a control group of 53 ministers who consumed fish, poultry or red meat on a regular basis. In this group 40 per cent had vitamin B12 concentrations below the recommended lower limit; this indicates that vitamin B12 deficiency is widespread even among non-vegetarians.* There are tons of studies that show meat eaters being deficient too, all you need to do is look, and if you dont care to, please stop spreading bullshit.

yes, and the people who claim they live off the air, NEVER eat ANYTHING. :D

I've tried this vegan thing for 8 months appx, and the last month I was doing this, everytime I would see a T-Bone, well this fucking T-Bone was talking to me....one day I said fuck that shit and went to buy $100 of RED FUCKING MEAT, that was one of the most wonderful day in my entire life. :D

Scott, I am a vegan, I take no supplements, I train 3-4 hours a day, I sleep perfect and have great blood work. My body gets EVERYTHING it needs.

No problem Scotty, instead of making claims I can recommend 3 or 4 good books that will provide you with the facts you need.

I certainly understand that Pete, I don't judge those that eat meat. Its not my place to tell people what to eat, but I am NOT b12 deficient or sick in anyway.

B-12, iodine, iron calcium...all that just magically appears because Gaia the fucking happy space goddess "bestows" it upon you and your blessed family. Fuck biology! Fuck biochemistry! The laws of physics, chemistry and biology just don't apply to magic "vegans"!

LOL, Scott come on...Hindu's and Indians have been vegans for THOUSANDS of years, Martial Monks, who go trough some of the toughest training known to man from age 3 all the up to their 70's are VEGANS. Mac Danzig, the MMA fighter, is a vegan, none of us are sick. Gladiators in rome; also vegan.

Yes, because you all lie and take supliments.

...og wait, it's Gaia the space goddesss that makes Zinc magically appear...because it's not in your fucking diet!

Scott, this is the TENDER FOR LAW right? Then I need you to PROVE to me that the folks I listed are taking supplementation.

You guys gave me the taste of a good fucking rib steak....I'm out of here ... Thanks

The alternative is that these things appear by magic or that you don't need them. The onus is on YOU to prove YOU DON'T. Claiming these things are IN your diet, is simply a lie.

MEAT IS MURDER! ...yummy, tasty murder. :D

I'm a member of PETA! (People Eating Tasty Animals)

LOL, Scott, I dont CARE that you eat meat or that others do. I am not an animal rights activist.

Excellent. Now we just have to get around that whole "magically appearing nutrients" delusion, and you'll be all set.

...I won't even touch on how Testosterone is made. Or will you just lie and say "Vegan men are a horny lot".

No thanks Scott, I tried while on meat and I could not train the way I can now, With meat I had to calorie restrict my food where as with fruits and veggies I can go up to 10K calories in a day and not gain a shred of body fat, Also my recovery time is between 22 and 24 hours, much less than any of my animal eating friends. Oh sorry and I eat a good amount of starches on my off training days, potatoes and rice.

Scott, I am a registered dietician and a personal trainer. I have helped 3 obese people lose up to 150 pounds of body fat, I also helped 2 diabetics remove insulin from their life. What have you done to help people with your eating habits?

Let me guess... you only eat ORGANIC. :D

Is that a tingling feeling i see coming on?

Sorry, your guess is wrong, I would prefer to eat organic but with our soil the way it is there isnt much difference. I try to do organic when I can but I grab what I can afford.

So where do all the missing things come from?

http://youtu.be/-2ET7Xv2m9k

Yes, I've seen that video Scott, thanks.

Scott, most athletes like me get our blood pulled when training, I am not missing anything, period, nor is any other vegan.

It's not for you. It's for the gullible reader who might think what you say might be true.

Again. you are simply lying and/or leaving out the fact that you scarf down beef jerky when nobody's looking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O_A6Mh1J48

Where does the Zinc come from? Calcium? (That's an element) That just magically appears. All those biochemists have just been doing busy work and don't know anything.

REALLY?

those are all present in dark leafy greens, Scott.

*Sigh* NO, THERE AREN'T!

You do not eat your body-weight in lettuce to get the 1/10th of the calcium you need?

...because that's what you'll get.

So I should be breaking bones left and right huh? Why am I not breaking bones or pulling muscles while training up to 4 hours a day?

Yes B12 deficiency goes beyond just vegetarians and vegans. I get notifications from a forum with people who are deficient in B12 and a lot of them confess to being meat eaters. It is more about an absorption, methylation and/or an intrinsic factor issue than getting enough B12. I am a vegan and I do supplement with B12 because I have an methylation issue, my husband is vegan and has adequate B12 with no problems. I do support the idea that pregnant women should supplement this vitamin no matter what their diet is. A B12 deficiency is one of the most under diagnosed deficiency amongst all types of eaters. There are many symptoms and it can mimic different 'diseases' like MS and Alzheimer's. There is also the factor of which form of B12 is best absorbed. I take 2 different types of B12 both sublingual, one being Methylcobalmin, the other a B12 coenzyme know as Dibencozide. Both left between my gum and cheek until they dissolve for maximum absorption. There is a great book on this subject called "Could it Be the B12?" Based on my research I am convinced many people have died of a B12 deficiency but because they ate a Standard American Diet no test were preformed to detect a B12 deficiency. The deficiency is higher in numbers for children and the elderly. By the way B12 is made from the bacteria in the animals stomach. I can say that when I ate an American Standard Diet i felt like shit, really, now at 48 I feel the best I have ever felt, and for me that is all the proof I need, no studies can convince me otherwise, especially in this fiction world where most everything is bought and paid for, even PEER REVIEWED evidence. Love you Scott!! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_xkK4ln2MY

No, you should do what's best for you... Just don't try to convince people of things that are not true!

yes your fighter is a liar too! That's what your ilk do!

hahahah

Oh yeah and I eat mostly all organic....why because to me it taste better! What even taste better is food right out of my garden.

Bascially Scott your defense is to call those you disgaree with, liars

No. I am qualified to see when bullshit, in a field in which I have ACTUAL expertise. Biochemistry doesn't change because you believe bullshit and slip in a little milk fish cheese, beef jerky and supplements... because here in reality, the laws of physics don't change. I will "disaggree" when what you say, conflicts with reality.

When you lie about reality to support your position, then Liar, is an appropriate response.

"According to Dr. Vivian V. Vetrano, vitamin B12 actually comes from coenzymes, which are already present in bacteria found on the human body (in and around the mouth, for example)." Dr. Vetrano states that in the case of deficiency the body has a problem absorbing nutrients from food. Vitamin B12 deficiency, rather than being caused by diet, is often caused by Crohn's disease, celiac disease, and other digestive disorders. Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/029531_vitamin_B12_vegan.html#ixzz2U8JQh8Kg

Oh fuck ,one of THESE shit-stains that i have to scrub away. Now i have to spend the next 20 minutes showing everyone who might take this seriously, why it's bullshit.

I found this to be true according to the confessions of people who eat meat. Why are so many meat eaters deficient as well? This is not from a study this is actual people who confess to having B12 issues that eat animal products.

OMG they just say "it's a myth" with nothing to back it up! There ARE NO POINTS TO COUNTER!

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Do you not READ the bullshit you post?

Why are people who eat animal products deficient in B12 as well?

read the artlice

Fine Jinny Freeman, so WHERE DOES IT COME FROM? It's not from your diet! Then answer where the: iodine calcium zinc iron ...and I'll leave out the polysyllabic things you've never heard of. ...come from? Do they just magically appear? Or could it be that you are lying through omission, and scarfing down fish, cheese and milk... and "forgetting" to mention that part?

I DID read the shit-stain that is the article. All it says is that "vegans know different" so don't worry it's a myth... then they say "it's something else" when the very real B-12 deficiency issue comes up... with links to "WebMD' about anemia. ...which still doesn't explain where all the missing shit comes from. YOU read the article. YOU mistakenly thought it had content. The declaration "it's a myth" is not a counter to the position that YOUR FUCKING DIET IS MISSING SHIT AND YOU PRETEND IT ISN'T. Here in REALITY, that's still true.

this comes to mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqqGZBRBLcM

You have no evidence or even know me to make a determination like that. If you knew me you would know just the thought of eating another living being makes me sick to my stomach. To me it would be like eating a human living being. So me sneaking off eating those things you mention is out of the equation. Even with milk and cheese another living being is being treaty cruelly and suffering beyond my comprehension, not to mention the male offsprings are killed. If that makes me stupid because I can not harm another than so be it. Like I said I feel better than I ever have so why should I eat animals and participate in such cruelty? Besides I have a B12 deficiency whether I eat animals or not because it has to do with the absorption of B12.

Even animal eaters have b12 and iron deficiency issues.. so what are you trying to prove? I'm pretty sure when I read your original question it was asking where do the vitamins come from if you eat a vegan diet? So why dont you stick to that topic and prove to me that you cannot get B12 from a vegan diet or any other source before you make such claims. You really think Iron is something not available from any other source? Spinach.. tomato paste .. lentils .. soybeans.. ?? Hello? I am confused as to what you are trying to prove because all you keep doing is coming back with words like "shit stain" with no real argument or proof or disproof. So what you state is only your opinion.. not proven fact.

Do you know what a logical fallacy is? Just because there are OTHER CAUSES for such a deficiency DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT BULLSHIT VEGAN DIETS SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE IT IN ANY USABLE AMOUNT! All your "belief" isn't going to change that reality!

And your beliefs wont change mine because mine come from actual practice. Yours come only from what you read on the internet. Case closed...

I do agree that the B12 in plant form is unusable in the human body, but yet there are vegans without a B12 deficiency. B12 is made by bacteria not animals. So perhaps that maybe the answer...either way my gut cannot absorb it regardless of what I eat. I can only absorb it through my mouth directly into my bloodstream by supplementation, a vegan form of B12 of course ;) made from bacteria in a dish not a stomach!

HERE IN REALITY: TRUE vegan diets (no cheese, fish, milk) do NOT have even 1/4 of what you need in B-12. They just DON'T, and telling people that they do is both a lie, and harmful. All of you claiming this isn't true and that your vegan diet shows it to be so, is unethical, dangerous and only serves to cover up the lie of commission (supplements, and beef jerky when nobody's looking).

Once again I am not in that category of all of you. I do claim to take supplementation of B12 in vegan form (made from bacteria in a dish), but my husband does not and has no B12 deficiency, same diet, unless that sneaky little bastard is beef jerking on the side.....NOT! lol....

The steak was awesome :-D

Nice pete! What kind?

The kind with iron an B-12 in it.

LOL! Nice Scott.

I want to hear about how MALE vegans have a healthy sex drive. That lie is the biggest one. They never tell you that you become the Ben Stein of sexuality, when you go "vegan".

Maca root!! Puts lead in your pencil! ;)

Speak up Jinny! Tell everyone here what a studly fuck machine that vegan hubby is! My response will be two words: Beef Jerky

You want to hear all about that Scott? Let me me introduce you to my friend, his name is google. https://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=vegan+sex+drive

LOL... He gets the job done, rock solid too!

Now you can read all about it, I have no problems whatsoever and have NO DESIRE to PROVE my sex drive to YOU.

WOW! One of the mapping crew on NX2000 has a GENOME MAP of this thing!

Maca root has a lot of good shit in it! :D

...and some other stuff that's harmless on its own, but nasty when mixed with other stuff...

I need to read some peer review, but this will effect hormone levels! Just a quick skim of the genome map shows that it DOES alter hormones... For better or worse I have yet to determine. ...a price is being paid somewhere when you alter hormone levels.

how about all the hormones injected into animal products?

Oh those just magically vanish using the same supernatural crap that vegans say replaces needed nutrients...even though they don't consume them.

Yes, the hormones in farmed meat are borderline poison. I agree, That's why I only eat babies.

Yams also alter hormones.....so does horse piss, lol

If all of you want to ignore chemistry, physics and REALITY, I can too. Gaia the magic sky goddes puts all the nutrients into your body, that you didn't ingest yourself...and then she fills the empty nutrient bags with all the hormones I introduced to my body by eating an ACTUAL diet. They just flitter away with her! She dances up to her magic kingdom, and feeds the hormones to the faries and cherubs that abound!

Meanwhile here in reality, you need a little biochemistry 101.

Soon I will exploit this. :D

you already did lol

Vitamin B12 is necessary in miniscule amounts. It is needed in such small amounts it is spoken of in micrograms, not even in milligrams. Vitamin B12 In Foods Micrograms per 100-gr edible Portion Green Beans 0-0.2 Beets 0-0.1 Bread, Wholewheat 0.2-0.4 Carrots 0-0.1 Oats 0.3 Peas 0.0-1.0 Soybean Meal 0.2

LOT of dumb people already. Bumper crop actually! I will spend a year trying to show you blind, sleeping, drones. Then I will vanish. Those who don't learn will be my victims.

IF one eats a PROPER amount of plant based foods (not 1200 calories but a REAL 3000 for an adult male) then one should be free of b12 deficiency and IF not one can eat fortified foods (soy milk and others) to balance out their levels. I have ran my blood, I have no problems with b12, maybe I will later, if i do, I will take what I need but for now, I need NOTHING and neither do my Aunt or her 3 children.

Vitamin B12 is necessary in miniscule amounts. It is needed in such small amounts it is spoken of in micrograms, not even in milligrams. - Posting accurate measurements of content to hide the vague lie "Vitamin B12 is necessary in minuscule [spelling corrected] amounts", does not make this valid. You HAVE revealed that you have no clue what B-12 IS.

Nature puts very little vitamin B12 in foods meant for people, are you now a higher authority than nature?

Ya... Gaia the magical sky goddess looks after the rest!

GREAT ANSWER!

You have never done even the tiniest bit of study in the necessary fields. I have. So, despite your "beliefs", I am a "higher authority" on "nature" than you will ever be.

Listen, you copy and paste machine. My physic, blood work and clients say otherwise. I don't need to read a study, I can look at my VERY OWN BLOOD work.

Scott I think you fail to recognize that your debate skills lack in the area of content that proves you correct beyond doubt. All you do is State your opinion .. You are a self proclaimed higher authority of this science but have yet to come forward with any proof that makes your argument valid beyond doubt.. nor for that matter have you disproved anything that we have said.

SCIENCE IS NOT OPINION! FUCK OFF WITH THAT SHIT.

I don't need to read a study, I can look at my VERY OWN BLOOD work. mmmhhh That's something :/

Pete, how many people have you helped lose weight and get on track to a better life?

at least 3 :D

So, by looking to your VERY OWN BLOOD, and without STUDYING on the subject, you hel OTHERS ? :/

Seriously. You don't get to put your "belief" on the same shelf as my knowledge. I have forgotten more about "nature" than you will know in your lifetime. The ability to map a genome is beyond your comprehension, and I am the THIRD GENERATION on the project. This didn't happen by "opinion". There's no "debate". You are simply wrong/lying. Your "knowledge" is in the same category as psychics and dowsers. Study ACTUAL nature, so you can counter the REAL threats to your diet. Because it will be deluded kooks like you who live off of "belief" that will do the damage. Pretending to understand something, isn't the same as ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE, no matter how much you shake your fist at your monitor and call me "arrogant" and "closed minded". You are not qualified to have this debate because we do not have a common frame of reference. I study reality. You guess, and parrot.

Your kind are a bunch of crook and you don't even realize it. Tha's what I think for now. I see your kind EVERYDAY, I hear you EVERYDAY, saying all kinds of stupid stuff and you have NO IDEA what you are saying. You heard it somewhere and thought it looks cool and you just repeat the shit.....

Im a Vegan and I could out fuck any of you cunts!! That Penn and Teller video was ridiculous, promoting GMOs over organic by showing an extremely bias example of a few food lobbyists who probably work for monsanto and then some stupid hippies.....Keep drinking the fluoride guys :)

Out fuck? What does that mean ?

SO much wrong with this. First: Can all of you stop using GMO as a term until you LEARN WHAT A GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISM IS! Have a CAT, THAT'S A GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISM. Eat CARROTS? THAT'S A GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISM. Increasing genetic traits like wheat that grows ANYWHERE is NOT the same as "FrankenFoods" (See Monsanto Corn) where genes are spliced by people who have NO business touching a genome map of ANYTHING with more than 1 cell. Oh...and do you work out with targeted routines to alter hormone levels, and increase muscle mass? YUP! YOU ARE A GMO! So please kindly fuck off with the GMO crap until you get a clue what you are talking about? Farming? AGAIN, something you are not qualified to speak about! An "organic farm" is an "organic" scam. They don't exist. The ones that do, could not supply much beyond their own needs, muchless a supermarket chain. It's the science you so decry, that gave you your lunch. The magical food fairy doesn't stock shelves...and neither do your imaginary "organic farms".

Oh, and for implying and/or inferring that I am an AGENT of ANYTHING, you will feel a sharp tingling sensation, followed by... BANNED!

And now, I have no idea what outfuck mean :-(

I get enough strangers claiming I'm an agent (For a PERSON), so I get my fill of strangers making declarations about me. Let me make this CRYSTAL clear: I AM AN AGENT FOR NOBODY! That shit I TAKE VERY PERSONALLY!

...and I HATE BABIES! ...just staying on topic.

Outfuck ? Anyone ?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200423022992030&set=a.2794067084723.2123710.1049798096&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

yah! lets not forget the breatharians, men that stare at goats, and all those fat people that dont eat anything!

I thought they were called breathetarians.

Just found this thread (catching up on some reading here & missed one)...but it raised a couple of questions for me, from the common sense/logic base as opposed to the scientific fact basis: 1. If we need to eat meat to acquire certain minerals/vitamins & trace elements (Beef jerky being used as an example here), and the meat products we are eating come from a herbivore, then where did the herbivore acquire the necessary minerals from if not from its diet? I am aware farmers feed their cattle mineral salts/rock salt etc to account for mineral deficiencies, so if vegans/vegetarians use similar mineral salts, is it sufficient to cater to their health needs (obviously not for the woman and baby in the article that started this thread) and at what level is this considered part of a 'normal' vegetarian diet & at what level is it considered supplementation? 2. If gorillas & elephants, herbivores that drink water, have the strongest skeletons (most dense bone matrix) of all the land based mammals, where do they derive the necessary minerals/vitamins & trace elements in their diet to maintain a healthy skeleton as well as hormonal & physiological balance? Biochemistry is not my strong point, so do these herbivorous mammals have sufficiently different biochemistry, physiology & anatomy from humans (bowel length & enzymes being 2 examples) to extract sufficient nutrition from the plant matter they eat to cater to their needs? Consequently, over time, is it possible that humans could evolve accordingly?...or a similar/better question may be: In response to the availability/absence of certain nutrients in our diet, are we capable of sufficient adaptation in our genetic expression to deal with this availability (or lack) or would we die out before such an adaptation could take place? Thoughts please?

I was also wondering about spirulina/blue green algae, nutritional yeast, and sea vegetables. I have read a few different sources that these contain iron, calcium, and various B vitamins (incl B-12). Unless I have the tools to break down and study foods on my own I have had to rely on reading whatever information I can get and "experiment" with myself to see what works. I obviously can't make any claims that anything I eat provides anything I need to have a the mineral and vitamin supply necessary for keeping my physical body in prime health. I can claim that I am not a vegetarian or a vegan (I do eat very little meat but probably would never give up dairy) and that I feel very strong and healthy.Scott Duncan, can you make some suggestions as to what to look for in peoples' writings/publications on their work to either give or take from the validity? You have mentioned peer review. Where does one look to find that? I am not experienced at researching others' work and taking belief away is definitely a start. But I can't know everything and you are constantly stating how detrimental it is to "value" the wrong things. Logic and reason backs that statement. Are there other tools besides logic, reason? How do you discern when you have no starting point of your own?