The Tender For Law

Volume 1

Mar 14, 2013 8:45 AM

I recall hearing something related to sending notice to a bank for example, to reclaim your money, from a loan or mortgage once its been paid in full...am I understanding that correctly? If I am, what is the name of the notice?

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Eamonn O Brien

Scott mentioned this before and said he's done it a couple of times.

As the creditor you credit the bank with the security/promissory note. You pay back the principle plus interest. When it's paid off you reclaim the principle and the bank keeps the interest. That's how it's supposed to work apparently...You're simply giving the bank a financial instrument... Something like that...

If I remember correctly, Scott said it's all in the contract...

Stuart Stone

Hi Eamonn O Brien, I'm happy to be a crash test dummy for this as I have put together a notice but would appreciate any feedback from the group...

NOTICE OF INSTRUCTION TO RETURN VALUABLE SECURITY NOTICE TO AGENT IS NOTICE TO PRINCIPAL. NOTICE TO PRINCIPAL IS NOTICE TO AGENT

TO: [Company Name and Address]

For the purpose of this notice: The term �you�, means the corporate entity [company name with company number] as well as any employee, agent, office holder and or director of [company name] at any time from the valuable security first being deposited, up to and including the resolution of this matter.

The terms �I� and or �me� and or �my� means the signatory of this document in any capacity that he deems appropriate at any time. The term �valuable security� means promissory note, security agreement, credit agreement, mortgage agreement, deed and or any other document and or instrument with reference to any sum in pounds, dollars or any other currency, bearing the same signature as used by the signatory of this document.

On or about [date of original mortgage agreement], I signed a valuable security and entrusted this valuable security to you for safekeeping, creating a trust relationship, in which you impliedly or explicitly agreed to act as trustee.

At or around the time of me entrusting this valuable security to you, you opened a customer account, [Account number]. The security offered by the customer as collateral in relation to this account was [address of property].

It is my understanding that the principal amount owed to this account was [original loan amount], and that this account has since been settled and or discharged, thus ending any business relationship between you and the customer. However, at the end of this business relationship between you and the customer, the original valuable security has not been returned to me.

I am providing you with this information to assist you in locating and retrieving the original, which I am instructing you to return it to me, via registered mail within twenty one (21) days from the date of this notice, to the following address: [Notary Address/ Your address].

Failure to do so constitutes your tacit agreement of the following: 1. That you will forward a bank cheque for the full face value of the original valuable security, being [amount in words and numbers of note], plus a further ten thousand pounds (�10,000.00) in lieu of the valuable security, for a total amount of [original amount + �10,000.00] to compensate for inconvenience and or any other losses incurred by me, within thirty (30) days from the date of this notice, to the following address: [Notary Address/ Your address].

2. That you have negligently and or criminally misplaced and or assigned and or disposed of the valuable security and agree to be held personally and or severally liable for any and all consequences of these actions, including prosecution and seizure of property to recover the full face value of the valuable security should you fail to carry out the instructions as described in 1. above.

By: [Your Name], Authorised representative for [YOUR NAME].

Stuart Stone

I have used a bit of creative ass logic, based on the rationale that if I notify as the customer and give account details as the customer, that business is now complete and I have no claim, but as the provider of the original security entrusted to them, I have the right to the return of this property... I'm just trying to make the link between the ass logic & the solution ;)

Eamonn O Brien

So the bill might look something like... Bear with me, I've never written a bill for anything... :p

EAMONN O BRIEN NO.2 BIG ROAD BIG TOWN

NO. 1 19/4/2013

A valuable, financial instrument was deposited on (date of mortgage) to the value of �100,000, reference no. 12345.

Full payment has been made as per contract. I am now seeking to recover the above mentioned instrument.

Amount due : �100,000

Payment is due within 30 days upon receipt of this bill.

Signed __________________

Stuart Stone

This may seem like a crazy question, but it relates to acting in 2 different capacities: Prior to the contract being paid off/settled, is it possible for the creditor to direct the trustee to deposit the security into the customer's account?

David Johansen

Eamonn O Brien how can my comment be poor? Scott made a typo and i merely ran with it. their is no value below 1 and all value above zero IS a value. even a single electron is a positive value.

so if you wish me to Ssh, then you better feed me some juicy steak.

Pete Daoust

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. Friedrich Nietzsche He is the one that declares the death of GOD :D

Stuart Stone

Ok, I'm going to be a bit of a boring fart & drift back towards the topic of this thread with a little tale of a mortgage contract I signed about 10 years ago...

In my ignorance of times past, I granted power of attorney to the mortgage company. In my greater ignorance/stupidity, I managed to screw up & grant an irrevocable power of attorney to the mortgage company, allowing them to fill in the blanks on any document, acting as me.

From Black's Magic 6th ed:

Power of attorney. An instrument in writing whereby one person, as principal, appoints another as his agent and confers authority to perform certain specified acts or kinds of acts on behalf of principal. Complaint of Bankers Trust Co., C.A.Pa., 752 F.2d 874, 885. An instrument authorizing another to act as one's agent or attorney. The agent is attorney in fact and his power is revoked on the death of the principal by operation of law. Such power may be either general (full) or special (limited).

Irrevocable. That which cannot be revoked or recalled. Commissioner of Internal Revenue v. Strong Mfg. Co., C.C.A.Ohio, 124 F.2d 360, 363.

Revocable. Susceptible of being revoked, withdrawn or cancelled; e.g. revocable letter of credit.

Revocation: The withdrawal or recall of some power, authority, or thing granted, or a destroying or making void of some will, deed, or offer that had been valid until revoked. In contract law, the withdrawal by the offeree of an offer that had been valid until withdrawn. It may be either general, all acts and things done before; or special, revoking a particular thing. Revocation by act of the party is an intentional or voluntary revocation. The principal instances occur in the case of authorities and powers of attorney and wills. In contract law, the withdrawal of an offer by an offeror; unless the offer is irrevocable, it can be revoked at any time prior to acceptance without liability. In criminal law, may refer to termination of a probation or parole order because of either a rule violation or a new offense, and forcing the offender to begin or continue serving his or her sentence. A revocation in law, or constructive revocation, is produced by a rule of law, irrespectively of the intention of the parties. Thus, a power of attorney is in general revoked by the death of the principal.

......... This has raised a number of questions for me:

1. Does the granting of a power of attorney deem me to be legally incompetent?

2. As I have granted an irrevocable power of attorney to someone else, do I retain a superior power or have I more likely declared myself legally incompetent to instruct anything?

3. How do I replace/fire/instruct the trustee if I have granted an irrevocable power of attorney?

4. How do I determine what securities and or other documents/instruments that they have created in the name as power of attorney, if I have been declared incompetent?

5. If someone has profited from a power of attorney in the name that I have granted to them, who is entitled to the benefits?

6. If I have signed away the power of attorney & the benefits, what rights do I retain as grantor/credit provider, especially if I am deemed to be legally incompetent?

7. How can the irrevocable power of attorney be removed if the one granted power of attorney may have acted against the wishes or best interests of the grantor?

8. Following the maxim: �As it is done, so it shall be undone�, how does one revoke or otherwise remove an irrevocable power of attorney?

9. OR, is this all irrelevant because better courses of action exist?

Stuart Stone

I put my signature to it, but from what I can tell, acting as credit provider/grantor...now the trustee (mortgage company/lender) has the right to act as me (in the capacity as credit provider/grantor) & create their own beneficiary or complete the blanks on any other document as they see fit...

This to me means the trustee now has the right to assign the mortgage, create security instruments etc...I am hoping for some feedback from others with a similar situation before I write to the mortgage company demanding full disclosure, so I have a better idea as how to best proceed...like I said above, I'm willing to be a crash test dummy on this ;)

Pete Daoust

Here is HOW I see this mortgage shit� YOU find a nice house YOU have not enough $$ to buy that nice house YOU ask the BANK to create the $$ so you can have this nice house The BANK wants the INTEREST on this creation they�ve just made YOU sign the DEAL YOU respect the DEAL to the END YOU go back to the BANK to take back the CAPITAL they�ve created for YOU :D :D

Pete Daoust

I can only get it when its SIMPLE....if it gets too COMPLICATED, my IQ level is not enough high to UNDERSTAND....so I DON'T understand....I have to bring it to SIMPLE, and then, I can UNDERSTAND....so EVERYTIME someone tells me complicated stuff...I ALWAYS say...I DON'T UNDERSTAND.....I THINK this will help me a lot for future DEALS.... :D

Stuart Stone

I'm with you on that one....I'm now trying to undo some of the shit I created when I acted like I understood but obviously didn't :) ...not finishing high school was probably blessing in disguise...less deprogramming to do...I've been a good little brainwashed slave for way too long & that programming is a real bastard to get rid of ;)

Stuart Stone

'blessing' was not used in a faith/religion context...more in a 'maybe you didn't know that leaving school had longer term positive consequences when you made that decision'...less deprogramming, gaining independence sooner, forced responsibility...who knows?!?

For me, further education had a bunch of positives, but looking back now, it's also quite obvious to see the hamster in a wheel/don't question authority type programming that goes along with it...that's one of the truths that I'm now facing up to

Stuart Stone

These are the kind of questions I'm wanting to ask ie: show me the paper trail....but, it comes back to my post above: If I have granted an irrevocable power of attorney, have I given up the right to question and or complain/demand justice etc...?!?

Stuart Stone

Of course they can't, but compelling them to answer or back themselves into a corner in a manner that creates a voiding of the contract etc are the practicalities I'm seeking answers for...I think everyone here understands the theory on how the credit is created etc but I'm trying to work out how to apply it practically and successfully

Derek Moran

Roguesupport Nx: You actually have no right to real estate in the commonwealth;only the Queen.

Homesteading still exists in Canada, but ask anyone who's had a pipeline plopped in their back yard, if the own the land.

Derek Moran

Derek Moran: Frank O'Collins did a talkshoe-show about who owns your home even after you've paid/discharged the mortgage - i made notes, but ill look for it later.. but it has something to do with our city-councillors being the head of the WARD we live in, as in - we're born in a hospital WARD, and then if our parents are bad to us we get taken away by Childrens Aid and become a WARD of the state

Derek Moran

Derek Moran: remember section 57.1 of the Bills of Exchange Act, your signature created the valuable consideration to that promissory-note being played off as a contract, where the bank makes you think that they are actually lending you THEIR money..

Derek Moran

Derek Moran: Here is exactly what Frank O'Collins said: "A mortgage masks, that even if you pay off the mortgage, you will only ever be, what is described as a ward-tennant or a tennant-in-common, a tennant of the ward, the ward being the council(city), under the guardianship of your council, and you are considered either mentally-unstable or an incompetent or a pauper, and that is ultimately your standing in their eyes.. you are never an owner, only a tennant, and owner is not the bank, the ultimate landlord is the council of your county.. and the purpose of the birth-certificate, is to provide you with the proof that you are not a pauper, and that you do have an equitable-share in all of this."

Derek Moran

The idea, that the City of Toronto, OWNS the land where my dads house is, or even THINKS it owns the land where my dads house is, is what i think Fukyiro Pinion (ONE thing of value he/she/it contributed) eloquently stated as- SYSTEMATIZED DELUSION

Derek Moran

*the ghost of John Bouvier to Scott Duncan*

"AHEM. Ive got 3 words for you, Scott. Derek, Moran, SCOREBOARD. *tsk-tsk* I expected better from you....." *long sigh, fades away and disappears*

[SYSTEMATIZED] DELUSION. One based on a false premise, pursued by a logical process of reasoning to an insane conclusion; there being one central delusion around which other aberrations of the mind converge ; Taylor V. McClintock, 87 Ark. 243, 112 S. W. 405. See Insanity.

http://nontaxpayer.net/Bouviers%201914%20Vol%203%20%20N%20cont.pdf